00:00:01
Robin Stickley: How often have you heard headlines like this on the news?

00:00:04
Clip: Let's talk about copper. We know that we've seen plenty of supply shocks in this market and it feels like the price has barely budged.

00:00:12
Robin Stickley: Yes, copper. Good old number 29 on the periodic table is getting a lot of attention these days.

00:00:18
Clip: Copper's made a bit of a rebound.

00:00:20
Clip: The copper supply crisis is here.

00:00:21
Clip: Copper mines are on the front line of America's transition to clean energy.

00:00:26
Robin Stickley: And it's that last line that really explains why. The clean energy transition absolutely hinges on humanity's ability to locate and extract enough copper. But why is the so-called ancient metal so important in the race to net-zero? And what happens if we don't have enough? I'm Robin Stickley, and this is Why We Mine, presented by Teck. This season, we're exploring some of the biggest challenges facing the mining industry and our society as a whole, with a focus on themes like trust and transparency, sustainability, critical minerals, reconciliation, and much more.
 
In this episode, we're going to talk about what could be considered the most critical mineral of them all. No, it's not molybdenum, lithium, or chromium, it's copper. Copper may have been the first metal ever mined and crafted by human beings somewhere around 9, 000 BC. It's widely considered one of the most important metals for ancient civilizations and it might be just as important for the future of humanity as well. Let's dig in.
 
Here's the deal, we need copper and lots of it because it's the safest, most efficient metal for the transmission of electricity. So why does that matter? Because moving to net-zero means we need to electrify everything. To learn more about the scale of the challenge we're facing, I sat down with the Director of the Mineral Deposit Research Unit at the University of British Columbia, Professor Shaun Barker. Shaun, welcome to Why We Mine.

00:02:17
Shaun Barker: Hi, Robin. Thank you

00:02:18
Robin Stickley: Shaun, our last episode was all about critical minerals. Why is copper perhaps the most critical of them all?

00:02:26
Shaun Barker: So everything we want to do with electrification to reduce carbon emissions is all predicated upon being able to transmit electricity, which requires copper. So copper is arguably, from a need perspective, our most important mineral and potentially one of those that'll be in short supply.

00:02:42
Robin Stickley: How great is the demand? How much copper do we actually need, Shaun?

00:02:47
Shaun Barker: So the forecasts vary, but it looks like we're going to have to do something like double copper production from its current state, where we are now in 2024, through 2050, adding something on the order another 20 million tonnes of copper production on an annual basis. So that's a very significant ramp up in copper supply that's required.

00:03:08
Robin Stickley: When you say those numbers out loud, sounds pretty intense. Quite a lift.

00:03:13
Shaun Barker: That's right. So we certainly know of a lot of copper deposits around the world. Some of them are technically challenging at the moment for us to be able to get the copper out of. Some of them have significant community concerns. But even if we were able to bring all of those deposits that we know about into production, we would still most likely have a shortfall of copper supply. So that's going to require us to find additional new copper resources and most likely also do things like start looking at, for example, reprocessing mine wastes or mine tailings to extract that copper that we've previously left behind for economic reasons. So it's going to be an all-sector push to find as much copper as possible, discover new deposits probably deeper than we've been currently exploring, as well as look at alternative sources of copper that we can identify and begin to extract economically.

00:04:04
Robin Stickley: I was going to ask about an alternative. Is there anything that comes close or acts as copper, if you will?

00:04:09
Shaun Barker: A number of metals transmit electricity, gold, silver, the most viable one looks like aluminium or aluminum if you're in North America, which certainly can transmit electricity and was, in fact, used in the 1970s at a time of high copper prices. We need thicker aluminium wires to transmit the same amount of electricity, but aluminium certainly can be substituted for some, but not all use cases.

00:04:34
Robin Stickley: And what about recycling, Shaun? Can we not just recycle enough of the existing copper to meet our needs?

00:04:40
Shaun Barker: Look, we can always do more on recycling. We know we dispose of things, we go, "I wish I could recycle that or is there a pathway to recycle that?" So recycling is going to be increasingly important, but one of the things that we're facing here is we're going to now embed the copper that we are producing into technology. So we're going to build a new electric car that might exist for 20 or 30 years, we're going to build a new wind turbine that exists for 20 or 30 years. So while we can certainly always recycle more, a lot of this copper that we need is going to be embedded and basically locked away in building this new electrical infrastructure.
 
So we should always aim to recycle more and copper's actually recycled a lot, we do quite a good job with copper already. We can't really recycle our way out of the supply challenge, we're going to need significant new copper resources.

00:05:25
Robin Stickley: Let's go bigger picture a little bit for a moment. How did we get to this place? And by that I mean to the point where there's this gap between production and projected need.

00:05:35
Shaun Barker: Underpinning all of this is the significant concern around climate change and a warming climate and need to move away from fossil fuel-based energy sources. So we now have quite viable pathways for generating electricity through renewables, through perhaps nuclear, through maybe nuclear fusion if that comes along. But we're still going to have to move that electricity around and we're going to have to store it particularly from renewables.
 
So that transition's been quite fast. Even if people look back 10 or 15 years, you would say yes, there's always been talk around climate change, but the real urgency has come along perhaps in the last five to seven years. Take in mind now that a new copper mine takes on average 17 to 18 years to come into production from discovery to the first copper coming out of the ground. So that explains some of the disconnect that we now see between society saying we want renewable energy, we want it as quickly as possible, but we have a process of bringing new mines into production that takes almost two decades.

00:06:35
Robin Stickley: Do you think people have any idea about the urgent need for copper? Do you think it's understood?

00:06:42
Shaun Barker: I think people sort of intrinsically know that we need metals in our lives, but I think people have a very hard time conceptualizing just how much metal is consumed around the world and the transition in the energy that's required. We're really looking at something that's far more difficult than going to the moon. We need to somehow produce the same amount of energy that we do at the moment and do that all from alternative sources and fossil fuels. And that's an incredibly difficult problem and it's one that requires a lot of different resources than we've used in the past to do that, including a lot of copper.

00:07:16
Robin Stickley: It is hard to get your head around something that large.

00:07:19
Shaun Barker: Yeah, so I think people have an intrinsic disconnect between they don't like mining, the potential damage, the environmental impact of mining activities around the world, so people don't like that. Yet we all like consuming the products of mining and, in fact, I saw a protest out of New Zealand, where I was last week, and I think the protest leader was reading his protest speech from his mobile phone. And that, for me, sort of captured that moment perfectly that we have this technology that we're all surrounded by and invested in and we utilize, yet we don't know where that technology comes from in terms of where it's produced.
 
I think it's a very difficult concept for people. I think a lot of us are quite closely connected to our food sources. We understand where our vegetables and our fruits and our meat and other produce come from and we want that to be produced in the right way. We'd like it perhaps to be organic or certainly for animals who have been treated humanely because we can see it, we can connect very closely with it. But I think a lot of us have a very hard time connecting with the technology that comes in our lives. It's a car, it came from a factory, yet all the steps before it came from the factory are almost invisible to many of us. Whereas if I drive to a farm or past a farm, you can see the crops being watered, things growing. We're much more closely connected to the food in our lives and to our water sources than we are to our metal and our resources which are really hidden and interconnected all around the world

00:08:52
Robin Stickley: When it comes to copper, Shaun, let's talk about globally, the biggest players. And maybe you can give us some frame of reference here for, say, where does Canada sit versus a country like Chile, for example?

00:09:03
Shaun Barker: So yeah, significant copper supply comes from South America. Chile, Peru, two of the biggest global suppliers. We're seeing increasing supply of metal out of Africa with new copper mines coming out of the DRC, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Zambia. There are new copper mines coming into production and have been discovered recently.
 
Canada is a major supplier in copper and British Columbia is the major producer of copper in Canada, with several producing mines, including the Highland Valley mine near Kamloops and the Red Chris Mine in Northern British Columbia. So we are a major supplier of copper and certainly with the potential for more copper supply with new discoveries that have been made and new mines that have been proposed.

00:09:47
Robin Stickley: Shaun, talk to me about the timeline of bringing a new copper project online and what are some of the factors here that affect how long mines take to develop?

00:09:56
Shaun Barker: Certainly. So the first thing we have to do is discover a mineral resource and then define how big that resource is. And that process can often take a number of years, particularly in places with difficult weather conditions such as Canada's north. We have often quite a short exploration season where we can safely operate. So that can take a number of process of years at times. And then we have a lot of technical test work that takes place and then a permitting process that will occur with government.
 
So all in all, we have deposits that were discovered, for example, the Resolution deposit discovered in the United States in the 1990s, and 30 years later it's still not in production. So those timeframes can take a long time to work through the technical components, then through the engineering and then through the government and societal processes that have to take place to get a new mining project approved. So it can take a long time.

00:10:49
Robin Stickley: The timing is something that I hear people in mining talking about often in terms of trying to speed up that permitting process for new mines. If we can speed it up, is that enough? Will that make a big difference, in your opinion?

00:11:03
Shaun Barker: Speeding it up will help, but if we're going to speed it up, we have to make sure we're still doing the same work and holding the same standards. We have to figure out new processes of doing that work more efficiently. But ultimately, we are likely to still have to find new supplies of copper, which could be discovering new resources in the ground as well as also getting smarter about perhaps reprocessing some of those mine wastes from the past that have been left behind. So there's probably a variety of things that are going to have to take place to enable us to help meet the forecast supply gap.

00:11:33
Robin Stickley: So what would you prioritize perhaps, Shaun, in terms of what do we need now to accelerate copper production to the point where we're going to meet demand?

00:11:43
Shaun Barker: This is sort of an all sector push. We're going to have to get smarter about reprocessing mine tailings, we're going to need new biological processes, using microbes to help us to get copper out of mineral resources that we have a hard time getting it out of at the moment. We're going to have to get smarter about how we permit and assess risk and do that more accurately than we have done in the past. And we're going to have to engage society and communities who are impacted by mining operations. None of these things can operate in isolation, they're all going to have to start working together to enable us to meet the shortfall of copper and perhaps some other metals as well.

00:12:19
Robin Stickley: Shaun, what is the potential impact if the world can't develop enough copper supply to meet the demand?

00:12:26
Shaun Barker: So people talk about a shortfall of copper, we can't really have a shortfall. We simply will see increasing prices and probably more substitution and technology not being adopted as they would've been. So the impact will be probably slowing down if things like renewable energy or electric cars. If an electric car is inexpensive, we certainly know consumers are more likely to want to buy one. If an electric car costs twice as much as an internal combustion engine car, then consumers are more likely to stick with the status quo.
 
So increasing prices will certainly impact our ability to deploy renewable energy and low carbon technologies because ultimately, people aren't going to go without energy. If you tell people, "Oh, just turn the lights off and the heaters off in winter and you'll be fine," people aren't going to do that. So if we are going to meet the energy demands of society, which we have to do, both in winter when it's cold as well as in summer when it's potentially hot with air conditioning, we have to have that energy and that energy has to come from somewhere.
 
So if we don't have the underpinning resources to build that technology that we want, then that technology's going to be more expensive or alternative technologies are going to have to be developed that haven't been yet, such as nuclear fusion, which still is only 50 years away as it has been for the last 50 years. So that's the challenge that we face really is that this isn't a metal or a metal resource supply gap, this is an energy supply gap that we're going to have to fill and fill very rapidly.

00:13:53
Robin Stickley: Professor Shaun Barker, what a great opportunity to tap into your expertise and chat with you today. Thank you so much for your time.

00:14:02
Shaun Barker: My pleasure, thank you.

00:14:03
Robin Stickley: That was Professor Shaun Barker, Director of the Mineral Deposit Research Unit at the University of British Columbia. Up next, we'll hear how the mining industry is working to scale that copper cliff that Shaun just talked about. Stay with us.
 
You're listening to Why We Mine, presented by Teck. I'm your host, Robin Stickley. On this season of the podcast, we're focused on the issues that matter most to the mining industry and the people who depend on it, everyday people who care about a more sustainable future for themselves and their communities. If you like what you're hearing or you've learned something, please give us a follow on your favorite podcast platform. We'd also really appreciate it if you could leave us a review. All right, now back to the show.
 
Today, we're learning about the world's growing demand for copper, fueled in large part by the net-zero transition. As we just heard, it's not just a metal supply gap, it's an energy supply gap and one we're going to have to close in a hurry.
 
My next guest has worked in the metals and mining industry for decades all over the world. Tyler Mitchelson is Senior Vice President with the Corporate Development Group at Teck. Tyler, thanks so much for joining me today.

00:15:28
Tyler Mitchelson: Oh, happy to join.

00:15:29
Robin Stickley: So Tyler, you joined Teck a couple of years ago in a really unique position, senior vice president of copper growth. What was the thinking behind creating that role?

00:15:39
Tyler Mitchelson: The intent of the role was really to have somebody in a group just completely focused on developing our copper portfolio of projects. We've got about eight to nine projects in various stages and really trying to bring those to fruition so we actually can increase our copper production.

00:15:58
Robin Stickley: What is so special about copper? Why is it in demand around the world right now?

00:16:02
Tyler Mitchelson: There's two aspects to it. I think one of the key components is the green energy transition that's driving a significant amount of copper demand going forward. As we start moving off of fuel-fired power systems into more renewables, you need much, much more electrification and you need much more copper for that electrification, whether it be solar, wind generation.
 
And then on top of that, you need the infrastructure to support it. You need the transmission lines, you need the distribution networks. All of that requires copper.

00:16:36
Robin Stickley: Let's talk about Teck's copper pipeline. Can you dig in for us in terms of what types of projects are being pursued right now and maybe you can give us some details, Tyler, about what stages those projects are currently in?

00:16:48
Tyler Mitchelson: Sure. I got to say one of the reasons I joined Teck was it was one of the most attractive copper growth pipelines that I have seen in industry right now. On a near-term basis, kind of focusing on three projects. One is our Highland Valley operation in British Columbia. That's got a mine life that comes to end, give or take, some time around 2028. But we have the opportunity to extend that for another 17 to 18 years, so that's near-term focus for us.
 
The other near-term ones we have is our San Nicolas project in Mexico. It's a 50/50 joint venture with our partner Agnico Eagle. And again, this is one which I find really interesting is this was actually discovered by Teck, give or take 20 years ago and it's a mine that we're actually going to bring into fruition. So we're hoping to enter into construction on that next year and be able to ramp that up for production in 2028, 2029 timeframe.
 
And then the third one that's in our near-term portfolio is Zafranal in Peru. We own 80%, Mitsubishi Materials owns 20%. And this is another one that Teck found, I think back in 2002 possibly.

And then beyond that, this is where it gets a bit more interesting and probably a little bit more Canada focused, the intent is, sometime after the near-term three projects are done, we have that opportunity to then invest in the next phase, which would be Galore Creek potentially, large-scale asset. In addition, in, again, Northern British Columbia, kind of a neighbor to Galore Creek is our Schaft Creek project. We own 75% and 25% is Copper Fox.

I think the other one, which is interesting is we have a 50/ 50 joint venture with Glencore in Minnesota. The JV's called NewRange and it's one of these opportunities of starting with the small scale mine and then be able to build into a larger scale in the Mesaba mine in the future.
 
And then the one I shouldn't ever leave out, which is probably the biggest opportunity is, as you know, we've just ramped up our QB project. Going very well and this is a resource that's probably got a hundred years of life there.

00:19:05
Robin Stickley: Wow. Sounds like there is a lot going on. That's pretty exciting. And I imagine too, Tyler, that beyond the projects that are already underway, exploration must also be constant.

00:19:15
Tyler Mitchelson: Yeah, and not to give our exploration team too big of an ego, but that was one of the attractive parts about Teck for me as well. I had followed the company for years, even though I've only been here for a couple. Teck has got an amazing history of discovery through the exploration program, so we're constantly having the opportunity to continue to grow the business and meet that copper demand that's going to be out there in the future.
 
And the one that I should mention as well as we do have a joint venture with Newmont in Chile, is our NuevaUnion project. Earlier stage, but it's one of those long life, large scale assets that's probably not in the 2030 timeframe but maybe in the 2035 post timeframe as well. So lots to keep us busy.

00:20:02
Robin Stickley: I was going to say, lots going on. When I hear some of these statistics that are tossed around about how much copper we need to get out of the ground, it can honestly kind of just sound overwhelming. How do you approach that? Is it possible to do what we need to do?

00:20:19
Tyler Mitchelson: Oh, I'm always looking at it from a positive light and I just see it as a great opportunity, not just for Teck Resources, but for the mining industry in general. Depending on what forecast you look at, by 2035-ish, you may need another 10 to 11 million tons of copper. And that's about a, say, 35 to 40% increase from where we are today. And if you take an average copper mine of, say, 200 to 300,000 tons, means you need 40 to 50 copper mines being developed. And now with the demand opportunity that's out there of really pulling for that production, it's reflected in the copper price that's really done well over the last six months. It makes it much, much more attractive for mining companies to be able to start to develop these.
 
Now, it's not easy. Developing a mine today versus 30 years ago takes much more time. A lot of times, it's not the technical and the execution components of it. It is sometimes. But from a social perspective of working with communities, regional governments, national governments, working through your permitting process, ensuring you've got the sustainability part of these projects figured out is so, so critical. And that starts much earlier in the process than actually building the mine.
 
So it adds to the timeline and I think Teck in particular does an excellent job of early engagement. And we talked about exploration earlier. We start community engagement relationships right at that stage. So by the time we actually want to develop a mine, we've probably been there for five or 10 years, working on those relationships, building the trust, showing how Teck does things that's maybe a little bit different than other mining companies in the world, and it gives us that credibility going forward.

00:22:15
Robin Stickley: You're leading straight into the next question because it feels like there is this tension, not necessarily a negative thing, but a tension between the need to permit mines more quickly, but to do it in a way that doesn't risk your positive relationships with local communities and with indigenous people. How do you maintain that balance?

00:22:37
Tyler Mitchelson: And it is a critical balance. You do not want to permit something in spite of everything else. For us, it's very much starting early with that relationship and being able to develop that as we move through relative stages. So the first time a community sees us isn't when we're actually trying to ask them to help us permit the mine. They know what it is, they're very well-informed, we've engaged with them. And we're looking for opportunities to bring them into the mine. How do they benefit from this? Besides the traditional jobs, what else is there for them? And what else are we doing to ensure that we're protecting their natural environment? And I think from a First Nations perspective, always respecting this is their land and we're guests on this land. What are we doing to work with them and ensure that we're doing this in the most responsible sustainable manner?
 
Having to go through the process doesn't necessarily mean it needs to take significantly longer. Where it gets challenging is where you're not sure what the next step is, and all of the stakeholders really don't have that predictability and understanding as to how we progress this to go forward. So I think this is where governments in particular can play such a large role in ensuring that it's clear, it's transparent, and it's streamlined. Take out some of the bureaucracy and you will get the exact same outcome that everybody's looking for, whether that's the mining company or the stakeholders or the governments involved.

00:24:19
Robin Stickley: When we talk transparency, one of the big themes of this season on our podcast is trust. So I'm wondering if you have anything else to add there, Tyler, in terms of how do you build trust with stakeholders?

00:24:34
Tyler Mitchelson: I think it does go back to starting early. You're entering a new area, you start with the local communities, you start with the indigenous groups that are there, you start with the local governments and you introduce yourself. Before you put a drill on the ground, you talk about what you're doing and you talk about how Teck approaches development. And I do think we've got a great reputation across the world because we do spend the time to work on that front end engagement with our communities and really work through listening, first and foremost, and not telling, I think is the key aspect. Are we really hearing what the communities, what the indigenous groups, what the governments are telling us? And how do we respond to that? And developing that relationship to work together to be able to develop this project in such a way that people's concerns, risks, issues are being fully heard and addressed as we develop it.
 
And then I think the key thing is once you listen, once we commit to a program, a pathway, we deliver. And I think that's one of the key things is making promises is really easy. Delivering on those promises daily, that makes a huge, huge difference to every community we go to. They will check with the other communities, they will check with the other countries. What is Teck's reputation? How do they show up? And it changes the whole nature of the conversation When you have the reputation is you respect the communities, the people, and the environment. You commit to doing the right thing and then you actually execute against it.

00:26:19
Robin Stickley: My notes say that you have been in the resource industry for 28 years.

00:26:24
Tyler Mitchelson: That is correct.

00:26:24
Robin Stickley: 28 years. Wow, congrats, Tyler. So you've seen a lot change, I would imagine. Listening to you talk about listening and delivering on promises, and I wonder how has the sector's approach changed over time, do you think?

00:26:42
Tyler Mitchelson: I think it's dramatically changed. And I remember looking at this, oh, it was probably 15 years ago where really started to understand if you think of developing a mine or operating a mine, oversimplistically, there's a financial component to it. Raising money, generating money as you operate to it. There's a technical aspect to it. So you got to be able to run the mine, know all of the technologies. And then there was a social component.
 
So if you think of 25 years ago, your social component, which is your communities, relationships, indigenous groups, was that 10% of the effort expended in the focus? Probably in that range. I think it's evolved to today, and somewhat gradually, but there's been some jumps probably in the last 10, 15 years to your social component, that engagement, that community, the First Nation relationships, that's probably half of the effort of developing a mining project today. Yes, you still have your technical challenges, but it's a small component of the overall social programs that we really need to understand to successfully develop a mine but also operate it going into the future.

00:27:58
Robin Stickley: That sounds like progress. Tyler, as we wrap up, I wonder what would you like people who are listening to the podcast to take away from our conversation today? You seem very optimistic to me.

00:28:11
Tyler Mitchelson: I think there's significant reasons for optimism. I think we've developed one of the most attractive copper growth portfolios that exist in the industry today, which gives us a lot of opportunity to grow into this increasing demand that's out there. I think we've got teams and people that we've built across this company that's going to enable us to be able to really deliver on these projects going forward and help grow our business and turn this into a quite exciting, significant player in this copper industry to contribute to society for that net-zero transition.

00:28:49
Robin Stickley: It's been a real pleasure to listen to you and learn from you today. Tyler, thanks so much for joining us.

00:28:54
Tyler Mitchelson: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

00:28:57
Robin Stickley: That was Tyler Mitchelson, senior vice president with the Corporate Development Group at Teck.
 
We covered a lot of ground in our copper conversation today, and I now have a greater understanding of why it's so valuable in the context of the energy transition. But for me, the real eye-opener of the episode actually came from Tyler, as he was reflecting on how much has changed in his nearly 30 years in the resource sector. And it didn't have anything to do with all the cool new Teck stuff, the autonomous trucks, the electric fleets, or the AI. He spoke instead to a newfound social responsibility in the industry, listening, delivering on promises, and never losing sight of the fact that we are guests on this land.
 
I was encouraged to hear about a desire to strike a balance, even as the world faces increasing demand for copper and a push to extract it faster, that there is an equally urgent obligation to communities to be seen and to be heard. And ultimately here, what I'm hearing is it's the relationships that matter most. That's progress.
 
I'm Robin Stickley, and this is Why We Mine, brought to you by Teck. Thank you so much for listening and thanks also to our talented production team. Our senior producer is Reaon Ford, Luc Batiot is our sound engineer, and our project lead is Maria St-Aubin. Additional support provided by JAR Audio. Until next time.