00:00:03
Robin Stickley: It's a critical component of any relationship, be it personal, professional, or purely transactional. I'm talking about trust.
 
So, what does trust mean to you?

00:00:14
Clip: That if I ask someone to do it, they do it.

00:00:17
Clip: I feel like trust is just kind of having a sense of faith in a person that they have your best interest at heart truly. And it's like a mutual reciprocal relationship for both sides.

00:00:28
Clip: I think it means belief in someone doing what they say they're going to do. Whether that's a company, a person, I guess it's a trust in meeting expectations.

00:00:39
Robin Stickley: A report that's been measuring trust across a variety of industries from 2001 to today shows trust in the mining industry is at an all time low.

00:00:49
Clip: I can't think of a time in my life when I would've trusted them, and it's definitely at its lowest it's ever been.

00:00:54
Robin Stickley: Yes, the mining sector ranked even lower than the oil and gas sector. But why?

00:01:00
Clip: I've seen There Will Be Blood, that doesn't bode well.

00:01:03
Robin Stickley: Well, to be fair, There Will Be Blood is about oil, not mining, but that just goes to show what we're up against, because you definitely can't trust what you don't understand. So, what can the industry do to earn that most precious commodity?
 
I'm Robin Stickley, and this is Why We Mine, presented by Teck. This season, we're exploring some of the biggest challenges facing the mining industry and our society as a whole, with a focus on themes like trust and transparency, sustainability, critical minerals, reconciliation, and much more. In this episode, I'm really excited to tackle the first topic on that list.
 
As I mentioned off the top, the mining sector has a trust issue on its hands. So, what can the industry do about it? How can it close a trust gap that's built up over decades? And why should it matter to the rest of us who aren't even in the mining business? Let's dig in.
 
My first guest today is a rock star in the industry. And like many rock stars, he sometimes says things that get him in a little bit of trouble. Rohitesh Dhawan is the president and CEO of the International Council on Mining and Metals, or ICMM for short.
 
And I've been given a green light to call you Ro.

00:02:30
Rohitesh Dhawan: That's right. Thanks, Robin, great to be here.

00:02:31
Robin Stickley: I'm so excited to chat with you, Ro. So much to get into here, but I want to start by giving our listeners a bit of a point of view on who you are and how you wound up in the role of president at ICMM. Tell us about that.

00:02:45
Rohitesh Dhawan: So, Robin, I'm through and through a sustainability person. I was born into a relatively poor family, in a country that's deeply ecologically stressed and that's India. And so I grew up with this real understanding that there are many people who are in a situation much, much worse than even my family was, that couldn't make ends meet and didn't have basic natural environments that were healthy. And so I've always thought about working somewhere, where I can make a difference to the state of our planet, and to helping people have the basics in life and be able to move up.
 
And when I look at the world through that lens, it takes me straight into the mining industry, because mining occurs in places that few other industries ever will go, in some of the poorest parts of the world, and it has this huge potential to cause great benefit, but also, Robin, and let's be honest here, great harm to the natural environment when it's not done well. And so when this job came up to lead the International Council of Mining and Metals, it was a perfect mix of what I've always cared about since I was a child, to try and do something that makes the world a bit better, with a real sense that it's what the world needs at this point in time as we need to grow mining at a pace and scale that we've never had to do before.

00:03:57
Robin Stickley: It's so funny to me because the more I talk to people in mining, the more I understand, a lot of people in mining didn't start out with that being the end goal. Was it in fact for you? Are you the one, Ro, who started out thinking you'd be in mining and wound up there?

00:04:10
Rohitesh Dhawan: No, no. It's very much accidental, but a great, great accident.

00:04:14
Robin Stickley: Okay. So let's talk ICMM specifically. You gave me a little glimpse, but what's your mission? What's your purpose?

00:04:19
Rohitesh Dhawan: So, Robin, the purpose of ICMM is to show industry leadership on issues of sustainable development. The organization was established 22 years ago now, by five companies who recognize that society rightly demands of the largest companies in the industry to do what it takes to mine responsibly and sustainably. Now today, that number has grown from five companies to 24, that together account for one-third of the global mining industry. And we are committing to a set of principles for how we will mine, that will make sure that people and the planet are front and center of the decisions, about how we mine, where we mine, when we mine, with the end results that we're contributing to the world's sustainable development. And of course, through that, help people see the mining industry in a different light.

00:05:07
Robin Stickley: I feel like that's somewhat rare though, is it not, Ro, that we are at the table together, holding one another accountable?

00:05:13
Rohitesh Dhawan: Robin, the most extraordinary thing about ICMM is that it exists. There is nowhere else where the CEOs of the biggest companies in the industry come together, at least three times a year, to, not lobby for commercial purposes, but for the sole purpose of pushing each other to go further in their commitments to responsible mining and to do the right thing. And yes, we have a long way to go and we can be better, but I really hope, Robin, that our record speaks for itself, that we're willing to take principled action on the things that matter to society, and then to be held accountable to what we say we will do.

00:05:48
Robin Stickley: So, we're deep diving on trust gaps today. Let's start with the story that I love. You opened a big conference recently, I think it was the Global Metals, Mining & Critical Minerals, and you were the keynote and you said something, and in saying that, Ro, you thought you might not be invited back. What was the thing that you said?

00:06:05
Rohitesh Dhawan: I said that, as an industry, we may be needed but we're not wanted. And the reason I thought it would really land me in hot water, and I did get into a bit of trouble, but I think the good kind of trouble, was that, until now, the story we have told is that the world just doesn't understand mining, and how important it is and how good we are and that people have an outdated image of mining.
 
Now, while there is an element of truth to that, I agree, we have to just swallow hard on the fact, Robin, that we, as an industry, have not also taken the steps to earn the trust of society. That is on us, not on others. What I was trying to do with that message is to accept the level of responsibility and accountability on ourselves, that we haven't necessarily engaged people in the way we should have, in order to earn their trust. Yes, there are misperceptions. Yes, there are mistruths that people may be under. However, I'm not sure we have done the things we needed to, and I'm sure we'll get into those, that will earn and sustain the trust of society.
 
Now luckily, Robin, after that first shock, I think it's opened up a series of conversations, where people are willing to be more vulnerable and accept that there are things that we can and should have done differently. And I feel we're taking the kind of action that I was hoping we would when I said what I did.

00:07:27
Robin Stickley: You know what's funny? You said, "This is the story we've been telling ourselves," this is the story I've been telling everybody that I talked to about mining. I realized that I've been saying things to people like, "Well, we need mining. Everything in your life, from your phone to your car, none of this comes to you if we don't have mining. Our modern lifestyles don't exist without it." So this speaks again to the broader issue of trust.
 
How do you define trust? Because I know how I define it in a personal relationship. But when it comes to an industry, and certainly, an industry as massive as mining globally, how do we measure trust?

00:07:59
Rohitesh Dhawan: One is to just use what you would use in a personal relationship. And the way I would define trust there is to say, how confident am I in predicting your future behavior? Really, that's trust. So it's consistency of what you do that allows me to trust what you're going to do in the future.
 
The other way to think about it, Robin, is, you see somebody, and this is where it applies to an industry, as innocent until proven guilty, or guilty until proven innocent. Now, I would wager that mining is probably the only industry, or at least one of a few industries, that is guilty until proven innocent. And people assume the worst, until you can demonstrate that it's not as bad as you thought it was. And, how did we get here?
 
Well, I think we got here through a combination of not really having the two basic tenets of trust, the first being competency. Competency means, do I trust you to the thing right? And the second is integrity, which is, do I trust you to do the right thing?
 
So in competency, unfortunately, we have created conditions, where accidents have happened, people have lost their lives, the natural environment has been affected. Now that makes people question, can you do the thing right? We've also had instances where there's been corruption, where there's been bad dealings, and that's meant that people have asked the question, can I trust you to do the right thing? So, Robin, competency, integrity are the two basic drivers of trust. And because we haven't necessarily given people confidence on both, we are in a position where mining is guilty until proven innocent.

00:09:46
Robin Stickley: When I hear you say guilty until proven innocent, I feel overwhelmed in terms of, how do you change it, how do you turn around, what are the steps?

00:09:54
Rohitesh Dhawan: Look, step one is just acknowledge that there is perhaps a trust deficit. We don't have to argue about how big, we don't have to argue whose fault it is, but just by acknowledging that there is a trust gap between us and society, I think we automatically enter a space where people are more willing to listen, open and engage.
 
I think step two is then to listen openly and actively to what worries people, and to work with them on the issues that worry them. I loved your story earlier, Robin, about saying to people, do you know where your stuff comes from? That's the first reaction that many in the industry would've given to somebody who said something negative about mining. They've said, "Well, do you know that you wouldn't have an electric car without mining, or you wouldn't have a cell phone without mining?"
 
Now, think about what we're doing when we do that. You are responding to somebody's emotional feeling of lack of trust or worry, with a logical argument aimed at their head, which has an undertone of, "You are so stupid, you didn't even know where this stuff came from. How can you possibly feel the way you do?" So there's a level of humility and active listening that I think is required to go on this journey of building trust.
 
And somewhere along the line, Robin, for any solution to last, that has a meaningful difference on the trust that people feel with mining, it has to involve co- designing, co- creating it with others, and here's the really difficult thing for us to do, to share power and control of the things that we do. Robin, because our industry is very technical, and it's engineering heavy, it is both right and appropriate, in many instances, for decisions and solutions to be designed by the industry. And it's a bit hard for a traditional mindset in our industry to let go of that control and power, which means that we often don't bring people into the kind of solutions that can build trust, and there are some beautiful examples of what's happening around the industry to try and change that.

00:11:57
Robin Stickley: There's a saying that you can't fight feelings with facts. You have to meet it with emotion.

00:12:03
Rohitesh Dhawan: That's right. And, Robin, just think about one other typical reaction we've had in the past, where there are people that might express a concern about mining, we respond with all the facts about why mining is so important. They come back then with, "Yes, but I'm still concerned about how you mine." And what do we do? We respond with even more facts about why mining is important or good. But before you get people into the space where they can absorb it, or they even are curious about it, you've got to make people feel heard, and feeling heard starts with acknowledging what they feel about you and the industry, irrespective of how they got there.

00:12:42
Robin Stickley: Do you need trust, really truly, to do the work?

00:12:46
Rohitesh Dhawan: Okay. So from a purely commercial point of view, we need five things to mine. We need people. We need money. We need the permits that allow us to mine. We need a market to sell our product into. And we need the support of people living around the mine, without which we cannot have a mine in their backyard.
 
Now, for all those five things, you need trust. So you need the trust of particularly young people, that you can provide them with a safe and rewarding working environment that's respectful, especially for underrepresented groups and women. You need to be able to give the trust to the providers of capital, that you're going to deploy their capital well and give them a good return and not cause controversy, so you need trust with your investors. You need governments to believe that you will operate the mine well, you will follow the regulation, and you will close it responsibly at the end of the mine life cycle, so you need the trust of the regulator.
 
You need the trust of your customer, that you are supplying a product that's not going to get them into trouble because somebody's going to say, " Hey, do you know that your value chain causes all sorts of issues?" So you need the trust of customers. And you need the trust of the local community, that you're not here just to extract and run away and leave them with nothing, because this is going to be a long- term project, so you got to have their trust that for the next 20 or 30 years, you're going to be a good neighbor.
 
So, Robin, it's not trust for trust's sake. If you just take a look at the five things we need to mine, all of them depend on earning and sustaining the trust of the stakeholders whose trust we seek.

00:14:15
Robin Stickley: Ro, you sound optimistic when I listen to you talk about this.

00:14:19
Rohitesh Dhawan: I'm so optimistic, Robin. Let's end where we started, where my family, we didn't have enough money for food at the end of most weeks, let alone school fees and basics. And today, our family's life is very different, and that shows you how much can change in just a generation.
 
And given the places the mining industry reaches, I'm so optimistic that the most responsible mining companies can change thousands, tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of lives for the better, in a way that no other industry possibly can, in a way that my own family's life was changed. And I look at the state of our planet, and I think about which industry has the power to halt and reverse our crisis when it comes to nature.
 
And you've had these amazing conversations on this podcast with Teck and other people telling you about the amazing steps that companies are taking to conserve nature. That fills me with so much hope, that if the future involves more mining, it can also involve more happiness, more nature, more wealth, and more equality, and that's a reason to be optimistic.

00:15:22
Robin Stickley: Well, your optimism is certainly contagious. Thank you so much for your time and for spending this time with us. Thank you so much.

00:15:30
Rohitesh Dhawan: Robin, thank you for everything you're doing, and thank you to Teck for making this possible.

00:15:34
Robin Stickley: That was Ro Dhawan, the president and CEO of the ICMM. Up next, we'll explore what the mining industry can and is doing to earn public trust. Stay with us.
 
You are listening to Why We Mine, presented by Teck. I'm your host, Robin Stickley. On this season of the podcast, we're focused on the issues that matter most to the mining industry and the people who depend on it, everyday Canadians, who care about a more sustainable future for themselves and their communities.
 
If you like what you're hearing, please give us a follow on your favorite podcast platform. We'd also really appreciate it if you could leave us a review. Now, back to the show.

We just heard how the mining industry is facing a big challenge in terms of earning and maintaining public trust. Now, let's find out what's being done about it. Joining me is Katie Fedosenko, the director of ESG Engagement for Asia and Europe at Teck, currently based in the UK.
 
Katie, it's great to talk to you.

00:16:46
Katie Fedosenko: Great to see you too, Robin. Thanks for having me.

00:16:49
Robin Stickley: Tell us a little bit about your role and responsibilities at Teck, Katie.

00:16:53
Katie Fedosenko: So I've been with Teck for 11 years, and I never imagined that I would end up in the mining industry, especially not for this long. I've a degree in English, and I recall, there's that famous musical, Avenue Q, what can you do with a BA in English? And you could work for a mining company, in the communications and sustainability team.

00:17:11
Robin Stickley: I love that musical.

00:17:12
Katie Fedosenko: So my goal here... I'm based in London, we opened an office here two years ago. And the purpose of our office is to tell the world about Teck, really. We've been a well- established, Canadian headquartered mining company and best known in Canada, but we're going through a big transition, and we have an opportunity to tell the world about who we are and what we stand for.
 
And the other key thing that we do here in London is listen and learn. And so, we often will go out and meet a wide range of people, from shareholders to government, and share that back with our team around the world.

00:17:46
Robin Stickley: It's such a fascinating time to be in your industry. It must be because, what incredible shifts you are seeing. When you open the conversation by saying to me, "We're here to listen and learn," I thought, huh. If you go back, not too far, but a couple of decades ago, I don't imagine that would've been necessarily part of what you consider now best practices.

00:18:08
Katie Fedosenko: So I mentioned that I joined Teck 11 years ago. This was before we had a Facebook page, and the way that we engage has really shifted. For a number of years, I did our sustainability reporting with a really incredible team, and the big shift that we made there was to make a lot more information available and transparent. We've gotten to a place now where, to gain and maintain the trust of stakeholders around the world, we have to do things in a different way. We have to share information, but I think we also have to be ready and willing to listen and learn, in terms of what their desired outcomes are and what their concerns are.

00:18:44
Robin Stickley: So we had the pleasure of hearing from Ro Dhawan earlier in this episode, Katie, and he had some really interesting ideas to share about the trust gap in mining. I wanted to ask you about Teck's perspective on trust, and whether or not you think there is in fact a trust issue in mining.

00:19:02
Katie Fedosenko: We acknowledge that there absolutely is a trust gap. And ultimately, trust comes from a number of different ways that you act. I know that Ro has talked before about how you consistently show up being a key factor of trust. And the truth is that, the mining industry has been evolving over the last number of years. We're changing our approach, but there absolutely is a legacy of impact, and Teck is included within that legacy. And so a key thing that we do, especially when it comes to our approach to sustainability, is we're to mitigate the impacts that we have, and to share in the benefits of mining to ultimately earn that trust and maintain it for years to come.

00:19:40
Robin Stickley: Do you think that trust is a more precious commodity these days than maybe it was once upon a time, or is there just greater awareness around the issue now?

00:19:50
Katie Fedosenko: The way that we communicate has changed significantly, and I think that's especially due to social media and the internet. I'm sure you've heard of the term " filter bubble", and this is when you get fed the same information more and more, creating the polarization of opinions and emotions. There's absolutely a dichotomy of opinions today among people and it's hard to get alignment. We see that in government, and we see it absolutely within industry.
 
And so, when it comes to trust as a precious commodity, that's a really great play on words, it's something that we need to continue to find new ways to connect with people. And I think this is really where a person to person connection becomes a premium. We have many communities in very remote areas, and we have incredible teams that work on engaging directly with the people who live within or adjacent to our mines, looking to understand what their key concerns are and looking to connect with them in a new way, especially given so many digital means can be misleading.

00:20:51
Robin Stickley: It's funny, when we talk about trust in this industry, the word that comes up over and over and over again is relationships. You just talked about the one- on- one factor, but is that part of the building of trust?

00:21:03
Katie Fedosenko: Oh, absolutely. When you think about being a Canadian mining company, and when I think about relationships, often, I think about working with indigenous communities. All of our mines are within or adjacent to indigenous people's communities, and a lot of the work that we do is guided by an overall approach to reconciliation and achieving free prior informed consent. And that really starts with having a relationship that's based on open and honest dialogue, and understanding what each party ultimately wants to achieve. It's often formalized in some type of agreement, but it ultimately begins and ends with a relationship.

00:21:41
Robin Stickley: I was talking to Ro a little bit about how you have to be in those communities and it takes time, which feels to me like there's a bit of tension between that piece and the piece that says we've got to go faster. Here comes the energy transition. There's an urgency to that journey. How do you balance those two ideas?

00:22:01
Katie Fedosenko: So, when it comes to the need and speed for the energy transition, we know that's going to require more mining. I think the average electric vehicle has four times the amount of copper than a combustion engine vehicle. And so, when you think about that rapid growth, obviously, it's going to happen in the areas around the world where we have mines. We can't change where those mines are, and that's where engaging with local communities, and particularly, with indigenous communities to advance those projects responsibly becomes critical to enabling the energy transition.
 
One example that comes to mind is our Red Dog Mine in Northern Alaska. It's owned by the Inupiat people and operated by Teck, and we actually have a goal to get to 100% Inupiat employment at the mine. It's one of these operating agreements that's unique at mines around the world, and it's one that we need to contemplate as we think about creating new mines around different, both local and indigenous areas.

00:22:57
Robin Stickley: Mining is so hyper local, if you will. There's such a direct impact to communities. How does that affect the trust dynamic?

00:23:06
Katie Fedosenko: Mining is absolutely hyper local, and many of the mines that we operate around the world are long life mines. And so, being able to maintain those relationships, it's not just a one- time thing. It's not just about doing your initial exploration, not just about building the mine, it's about continuing to operate, sometimes, for decades. And so when it comes to those local impacts and local benefits, it has to be done in collaboration with local communities, to understand what they care most about and what type of benefits they're looking for.
 
Many local communities also have access to news from around the world, where they'll see the impacts of mines that maybe nowhere near where we operate and that colors their opinion of mining as well. And so we both have to be able to manage our local impacts, but also collaborate through organizations like ICMM to address the responsibility and best practice of mining everywhere that mines operate.

00:24:08
Robin Stickley: You mentioned impact around the world, so let me zoom out quite a ways here. You're in London. How do you feel Canada's perceived internationally, Katie, when it comes to resource extraction and development?

00:24:19
Katie Fedosenko: Robin, it's really interesting. I was at a conference in Brussels, in Belgium, a few weeks ago, and I had someone come up to me and say, " There's no better time to be a Canadian in mining than now." Canadians are known for being responsible. We also have standards like the Mining Association of Canada Towards Sustainable Mining Program, which was created in Canada and then exported to a number of countries around the world, including Australia and the Philippines. We also have really strong diplomatic relationships that we benefit from as a mining organization. And so, we're perceived, I think, very positively as Canadians in Europe.
 
But one thing I find very different, as a Canadian here, is that, the resource economy in Canada is very pervasive and robust. It'd be entirely normal to work for the mining industry or forestry or oil and gas. But here in the UK and Europe, a lot of processing and extraction has been shipped offshore, and it has been for a number of decades. The last time there was a robust mining industry in the UK was during the Thatcher administration and she shut it down. And so mining is very out of sight, out of mind, and people's perception of mining in Europe and the UK is quite outdated. And so while we're well- received, there's still the issue of mining itself not being positively viewed and accepted.
 
The interesting tension here is the rise of critical minerals. And so we see the UK, we see the EU, Canada, countries around the world, the US through the Inflation Reduction Act, solidify in their position on critical minerals. And what's interesting about the EU with their Critical Raw Materials Act is that they have set quite aggressive targets to increase domestic production, processing, as well as recycling. And it remains to be seen whether or not they'll be able to achieve them, given how negative the perception of mining is on the continent.

00:26:12
Robin Stickley: Interesting to listen to you talking about the fact that mining is something that happens over there, because it feels very much that maybe the consumer is starting to get a little bit closer to it. Maybe that's part of the whole critical minerals piece that we have better understanding right now.

00:26:26
Katie Fedosenko: You know, Robin, I think about that trust survey that ICMM did, and you have to wonder, why is mining at the bottom of the list? And I think one of the key things here is when you think about the organizations that are most trusted, education, technology, for example, we interact with technology every day as people. We receive education. Even oil and gas, I still have to go to the pump to fill up my vehicle. I have a direct connection with all of these industries. There's no direct connection with the products of mining. I'm not interacting with copper concentrate ever.
 
And so, when you think about the opportunity to close the trust gap, we see a solution, or at least a potential solution, at Teck in terms of doing further integration throughout the value chain, to be able to follow the product from the mine where it's responsibly produced, as it gets processed, and then into the ultimate end use, whether it's a wind turbine, an electric vehicle, rapid transit. Being able to tell those stories downstream is a key way that we're looking to demonstrate how the products that we create are created responsibly to enable both the energy transition and a better quality of life for people around the world.

00:27:35
Robin Stickley: For me, that is the little brain exploding emoji moments of this conversation, because you're so right. We don't touch it, we can't hold these products, and that is part of the disconnect, and maybe, to your point, part of the trust gap issue. I'm going to end on this question, Katie, because I think it's an important one. How does Teck show people that you're doing something real about the issues that matter to them?

00:28:02
Katie Fedosenko: Robin, that's such a great question and one that's really near and dear to my heart. Having worked for so long in the communications team, and the key way that we showed people for so many years, and we continue to is through our sustainability reports. Full of data and case studies, it's a hundred pages long. I'd be surprised if anyone actually reads it from cover to cover except for nerds like me. But I think that the key way that we show people is, honestly, by taking action.
 
There was a number of years where companies, including Teck, were seen as a good company if they set an ambitious aspiration. This is 10 years ago, when you first set your Net Zero commitment. And a lot of companies made those commitments and they were empty. And so now we're at a place where companies that take action to achieve their aspirations, those are the companies that stand apart as leaders. And I think that, for Teck, I think about ambitions like our work to become, or at least help to achieve, a nature positive future. And the work that we did to conserve and protect more than 40,000 hectares of land in Canada and Chile, that's action on the ground. We didn't just set an ambition.
 
And so, I think that when it comes to demonstrating trust and showing people that we are making a positive impact, we have to set ambitious goals, but then we really have to achieve them and take action to deliver against our attention.

00:29:26
Robin Stickley: Katie, I have loved talking to you. Thank you so much for your time, and continued success to you at Teck in London.

00:29:34
Katie Fedosenko: Thank you so much, Robin. It has been a pleasure.

00:29:36
Robin Stickley: That was Katie Fedosenko, the director of ESG Engagement for Asia and Europe at Teck.
 
This episode really brought home for me why the trust gap is an issue, and it's one that the industry knows has to be resolved. It's not only the door opener, but it is the single biggest factor in keeping communities and workers, investors and stakeholders, all of those folks at the table. You've probably heard the saying, there is no energy transition without critical minerals. Yeah, that's absolutely true. But I think that statement actually skips over a step because trust is just as critical here. Earning that trust, from a skeptical public and an industry that's often guilty until proven innocent, that's the way Ro put it, well, that one's no simple task. But the good news, as we heard from Katie, is that the shift seems like it's already well underway. The industry is doing more listening and learning, and relying a lot less on that old narrative about why we should accept mining simply because we need it. It sounds like a solid strategy to me.
 
I'm Robin Stickley, and this is Why We Mine, brought to you by Teck. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks also to our talented production team. Our senior producer is Reaon Ford. Luke Batiot is our sound engineer. And our project lead is Maria St. Aubin. Additional support is provided by JAR Audio. Until next time.